Eradicating Toxic Leadership with Alex Draper

In this episode of The Inspire Podcast, Bart sits down with Alex Draper, founder and CEO of DX Learning, to tackle a critical issue in the workplace: toxic leadership. Alex starts with a simple truth—bad leadership is toxic and has negative impacts. So why does it persist when no one sets out to be a bad leader?

Alex explains that most toxic leadership isn’t intentional—it’s unintentional, and it stems from a lack of self-awareness and training. He discusses how leaders need to provide Clarity, Autonomy, Relationships, and Equity (his CARE model) and shares how to begin fostering CARE-driven leadership through data gathering, practical steps, and clear ways to measure progress.

Alex’s insights are essential at a time when employees are demanding more from their leaders—and when the opportunity exists to lead in a way that truly inspires. If you're a leader looking to create a healthier workplace culture and drive better results, this episode is for you.

Connect with Alex on LinkedIn, learn more about Alex at DX Learning, and check out his book here. 

Show notes:

1:00 Introducing Alex Draper
1:32 What does DX Learning do?
1:56 Purpose is to wipe out toxicity in the workplace 
2:55 How to get leaders to behave in positive ways
4:05 How to go into a company knowing that your specialty is toxic workplaces
4:21 Some people are truly toxic and try to cause stress 
5:00 There are narcissists out there
6:00 There's no flawless team or human
6:19 Toxicity exists in every team
7:32 What are the signs of a toxic leader or culture
8:23 Levels of silence indicate a problem
8:56 Ideas and challenging the status quo - is that happening?
9:36 Lagging indicators: retention issues
10:39 What is a typical engagement like?
10:56 Engineering mindset - data!
11:59 What data should we gather?
12:28 70% of variance in employee engagement is down to the managers 
12:41 If the team has an issue, it's more than likely the leadership does
12:51 Bottom up approach is not the right approach!
13:15 How to gather the data?
13:28 4 dimensions of high performing leadership/teams
14:54 How "Equity" fits in
16:48 Cognitive dissonance - gaps
17:07 Bart asks for an example of a gap dissonance between leaders and employees
19:21 Advice on collecting "listening data"
21:02 How can leaders provide more clarity?
21:49 Example of a leader working on clarity
24:18 The projection bias
24:48 Heuristics - brain shortcuts -cause issues
25:44 Example of 'autonomy' problem
26:01 Psychological safety = Autonomy
31:46 The "Equity" piece
33:05 Equity is the lagging indicator
33:34 How do you measure equity?
33:43 Fairness orientation
34:23 Equity is the output of the three controllables
34:53 Re-measure!
35:07 What should the measurement frequency be?
35:31 90 days for teams
36:32 Teams are always adapting
37:19 Change is the one consistent
38:22 How do you feel about the state of leadership in 2025 and onwards?
39:56 AI and how it will fit in the mix — emotional intelligence as the distinguishing factor
40:21 Where can people go to find out more?
40:48 Thank Yous
41:35 Show outro

Show Transcript:

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Alex Draper: 70% of the variance of employee engagement is down to the managers. Now, culture is a mirror of leadership. So I'm Typically, most people don't put the team leader, the CEO or the VP as the problem child. They more than likely are right. So if a team has an issue, it's more than likely the leader has an or the leadership team has an issue.

Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, Bart Egnal, President and CEO of the Humphrey Group. And if you've ever asked yourself how can you develop an authentic leadership presence or how can you tell stories that have people hanging off every word, well, then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life. So my guest on today's episode of the Inspire podcast is Alex Draper, and Alex is the founder of DX Learning. Alex, welcome to the Inspire podcast.

Alex Draper: Thanks for having me, Bart.

Bart Egnal: Yeah, thanks. Thanks for being here. We've known each other for a number of years. We've moved in the same leadership circles, and I follow you on LinkedIn. You produce great content. The reason I wanted to have you on is you have kind of taken a stand against bad leadership, bad toxic leadership, and you've built a business around it. So give us the Kohl's notes on DX Learning. What's the company all about and what kind of work do you do?

Alex Draper: Well, I'll just do a, show of gratitude before I get into that, which is, yes, I've known Bart for a couple of years and also been a great mentor of mine and has helped me through many shifts and transitions through dx. So thank you and appreciate, you having me here on, Inspire.

Bart Egnal: it's a pleasure.

Alex Draper: Cool. Dx, you mentioned the word bad leadership and toxicity. so our whole purpose is to wipe out workplace toxicity. I don't think we'll ever actually achieve it, but just the desire and want to do our part in reducing the amount of stress on our lives. Because we spend what, most of our. Most of our lives in a workplace of some sort. And we're only, what, 4,000 weekends?

Bart Egnal: Right?

Alex Draper: I don't think we should spend those weekends de stressing from a stressful environment. Life's just too short. So our, obligation is to work with organizations and the leaders within, because the culture of a team is a mirror of its leader. As the CEO of my company, what I value drives How I behave. How I behave is how others experience me. And if others experience the good Alex, as Maya Anglo said, well, I'll forget what you say, I'll forget what you do, but I'll never forget how you made me feel. Which goes to sort of. Our work is, well, how do we get leaders to consistently behave in ways which make people feel good about themselves, feel inspired, feel motivated, do their best work, be their best selves, and not have to go home to their families, having to worry about their boss or worry about the business and not knowing how to put food on the table or just not being present with their, families, kids, partners, whoever they may be, or friends.

Bart Egnal: Yeah, I think it's a really important mission. I mean, I don't think there's anyone who spent any time in the workplace, whatever workplace they're in, and has not experienced the ramifications of that kind of stress and toxicity. Now, that. And that's why I wanted to have you on, because I think that the impact of bad leadership is so material and ultimately, to your point, impacts the company's performance and impacts people's lives. And so I think it's worth talking to you about why that happens. Because there's no one who would ever wake up, by the way, and say, I'm going to be a toxic leader today. you know what? I'm going to try and demotivate and demoralize m my people. Maybe I'm wrong. There is, but.

So I guess my first question to you before we get into what you actually teach is, how do you go and talk to companies and make a case for yourself? Because to say that there's a need for your services, don't we have to presuppose that there is toxicity? So how do you go about pitching yourself?

Alex Draper: That's a very interesting question. I'll answer the first question. I truly believe there are a couple of people, handful of people that do intentionally go out of their way to cause stress in other people's lives. So if you work for one of those, run, get out, get out, or.

Bart Egnal: Hire Alex Draper or pray.

Alex Draper: I can't help those people. So don't hire me. Just run.

Bart Egnal: and you can't help them because it's their intention. You're saying, if I'm picking up on this, there is a small subset of people in power whose intention is not to lead, not to inspire, but to just subjugate. Is that right?

Alex Draper: I would. I would. I don't have data to prove it, but I've. I've Walked. I've been doing this for 22 years. I've, I've been led by people who like that. My dad was like that. So I, I do know and I think that's what you called narcissism. and there is a spectrum of narcissism. So if you're off the spectrum narcissistic npd, then that unfortunately just how you show up is very selfish. Again, that's the brain which I'll then go to. That's why the unintentional consequences of not working on your brain can lead to toxicity within your t. so that's.

Bart Egnal: Really the kind of. If we put aside the narcissists, it's really your. What I'm hearing is that a lot of the toxicity that may be created is unintentionally created by behaviors. Is that. And so the case is almost like how you help a company help its leaders understand how to not do that. Is that right? Is that the pitch?

Alex Draper: It is. Would you agree there's no flawless team.

Bart Egnal: Well, except yours and mine, Alex. Yes, we try. Yes, exactly.

Alex Draper: There's no flawless team because there's no flawless human. There's no flawless leader. And so really the pitch is it's not around, it's not hey, we're going to reduce toxicity because no one puts their hand up and go I have a toxic environment and can you fix it? What the sort of reframe is. Look, there's toxicity that exists in every team because we're human and humans have brains and brains are ah, selfish self centered pieces of machinery. We say at DX human beings are running advanced societal software technology on cave person hardware, the brain and we ain't ready for this stuff. So do you believe. So our platform is called Care to Win. So the winning part is do you first question I would ask is do you believe. What are you trying to win at? reduced. I want to improve employee engagement. I want to reduce churn rates. I want to improve the bottom line. The second question would be okay, do you believe that ah, if your people collaborate more effectively and enhance the way in which they work together and communicate that you are more likely to win at whatever you just stated and if they go no, I run a million miles away because I'm like well you don't get it. If they say yes, great, let's work on that. The unintentional consequences of just being human, if they're not mitigated and de risked, you're just leaving money on the table.

Bart Egnal: Okay.

So then what are some signs that you would point to for people listening or saying, you know, I'm not sure, maybe it is I'm seeing toxic behavior, maybe I'm not. What are the behaviors and signs that you would suggest are indicative of a need to kind of get m away from toxic leadership and provide a more inspiring type of leadership?

Alex Draper: I think the ultimate sign is silence.

Bart Egnal: Silence in what way?

Alex Draper: So as a. So for the leaders on the call, two types, right? You got the organizations and then the leaders within. So if you're a leader, how much chit chatter do you hear on a daily basis? How much feedback do you receive, both positive and constructive on a daily basis? Right, because feedback should be habitual and it should be received. If you're not hearing it and you're not seeing it, then that because the fear in the people's brains means that the psychological safety and trust is not there and they're not speaking up. So number one would be silence. Levels of silence, lots of chit chatter, lots of feedback. People are being constructive people, healthy conflict, people are talking. You're hearing it in meetings. Like I disagree with that.

Bart Egnal: Right.

Alex Draper: Or a leader saying, I screwed up. Right. All of this is non silent. So the more silent the team, the more toxicity in that team, the more the performance issues.

Bart Egnal: Okay, what would be another thing to watch for that's indicative of, you know, healthy or toxic culture ideas?

Alex Draper: challenging the status quo, an unhealthy culture. I don't dare, challenge the status quo. And this is how we've done things and this is how things always get done. So challenging the status quo and ideas and people just coming up with, hey boss, I got a new idea. Oh, interesting. That's not going to work, but I like it.

Bart Egnal: Hey, do it.

Alex Draper: Keep, keep coming to me. So, which is similar to silence, but more focus on continuous improvement.

Bart Egnal: So if you're a leader and you're hearing people on your calls, bring you ideas or challenge what you're saying, that's a great sign.

Alex Draper: Correct? so ideas, I mean the lagging, these are, I think these are more the leading indicators. Lagging indicators, you're seeing an uptick in retention challenges. Put your hands up. If you've lost, think of the best person on your team or the sort of high performers. Have you lost one of those in the last six months? that's a lagging indicator. engagement, of course. Is it status quo, uptick, downtick. So those are more what I would call the lagging indicators or leading indicators is how we're collaborating, communicating, and having each other's backs.

Bart Egnal: Yeah, I like that mix. And I think people listening, this self awareness that you're asking me will develop. You want to kind of be evaluating. I'm hearing, you know, what is this? What is the tone, what's the dialogue? And it can be in your team, it can be the broader culture. And then whether I like your other, your lagging indicators around retention, engagement.

Okay, so let's say people are saying, you know, it's not perfect because there's no perfect team. But there are some of these signs I'm starting to see. And they bring you in and they say, okay, work with us. So how would you help? I mean, because these are kind of bigger. Like, these are not like easily fixable cultural changes. How do you work with clients and what's your approach?

Alex Draper: Well, the step one is data. Right. I wish we would use an engineering mindset for the social sciences. We're in the social science business. it's amazing how much assumptions, gut feelings, and non scientific forms that we use to actually understand problems. So number one is let's use an engineering mindset for actually finding what the root cause is. I get so many cause. Alex, we've got this. I think I've got this problem. And I think we need more vision or, you know, we need accountability training. Everyone always seems to think that, yeah, people like that.

Bart Egnal: We want accountability training. Make them accountable.

Alex Draper: Yes, it's fascinating. so when they go to tick box training, we don't do that. So please don't try and fix challenges with assumptions and your gut instinct. So engineering mindset. Step one is gather data.

Bart Egnal: So how do you gather data and what data should you look for? I'm thinking of people listening are saying, maybe I can't bring Alex in, but I want to gather some data. What would you advise? And maybe, then if you could give me an example of a client who gathered this kind of data.

Alex Draper: So what we're looking for is the leading indicators for what's causing whatever issue that you're having with the team not being flawless or the organization not being flawless. our, business is built on behavior change. So we're looking for the behaviors. And it's really, as Gallup said, 70% of the variance of employee engagement is down to the managers know culture is a mirror of leadership. So I'm typically most people don't put the team leader, the CEO or the VP as the problem child. They more than likely are right. So if the team has an issue. It's more than likely the leader has an or the leadership team has an issue. We tend to try and do the bottom up approach and I don't think that's the right approach. It's the easy approach. And what we're all trying to do is do the easiest thing and then when was the easiest thing ever the right thing to do? So we're looking to gather behavioral data on how the leaders are turning up and the behavior.

Bart Egnal: And how do you do that? Is it an engagement survey? Is it a tool? What do you use to gather that data?

Alex Draper: We got a validated behavioral assessment which links back to our Ketawin platform. The science of the work that we do is high trust. High performance environments are built on the four dimensions. From our point of view, which is very similar to most of what you've heard, we're just putting it into something simple.

Bart Egnal: And what are the four dimensions?

Alex Draper: It's care. It's not the cuddly type of care. But we're not going to give each other a hug here.

Bart Egnal: There's no hugging. There's no hugging.

Alex Draper: I'm a hugger. But that's all right.

Bart Egnal: Cvnce program.

Alex Draper: Maybe afterwards. So CARE stands for the human skills to get the hard stuff done. C stands for clarity. How can you build a high performing, high trust team unless people are crystal clear on what's expected of them, the role that they play and connected to a higher purpose and a why, any variance or the big of a dissonance between what is needed in a team and what they get, the bigger the performance issues. So clarity. A stands for autonomy. put your hands up if you love to be told how to do your job. Said no one ever.

Bart Egnal: No one.

Alex Draper: There we go. So just autonomy is at the right levels of control to the right people. It's not a one size fits all. Trust is obviously autonomy is always earned. but without autonomy and there's more micromanaging, there's going to be issues within the team relationships. We're tribal people, we're social creatures. And that sense of belonging. If people don't know what my strengths and motivations and what I value, they'll start to question the motives again. Bigger the gap, bigger the problems. And E stands for equity. Yes, I said the word equity, people. so that should be equity.

Bart Egnal: Buzzer It's 2025. Carry on.

Alex Draper: So our definition of equity, just to put this in perspective, we're trying to operationalize this for human beings and to make it very simple. So it's adapting to the unique needs of those that you serve. So it's the adapting. If you're not adapting to the unique needs, then you're really more of a one size fits all. And that's more about equality. We're just all about, we need to adapt to people. So we call that curse clarity, autonomy, relationships, equity.

Bart Egnal: Okay, so I love the model. And we'll come back to it in a moment. When you do an evaluation and you're getting data, are you able to. Do you survey people on how much these four characteristics are present in their workplace, in their relationship? Is that the assessment?

Alex Draper: Yeah, we're two sets of questions set. A question goes to the people managers that says, I give the team members individual contributors get the same one. But I get, I get.

Bart Egnal: So it would be like I get clarity from my leader. I get autonomy to pursue the work in the way that I see as most effect. These are the kinds of questions that you correct.

Alex Draper: M, I, I, as a leader, I never micromanage. My team strongly agree to disagree.

Bart Egnal: And then, so you're looking at the scores, but I imagine you're also looking at the cognitive dissonance between the two where it's like, I never micromanage. Oh, yes. I am always micromanaged. Right. So that contrast it is.

Alex Draper: And I'm reading a, black box thinking by, Matthew Said right now, and he talks about cognitive dissonance is probably one of the biggest challenges that no one really talks about. It's huge. So that it goes to the, goes back to what you said earlier. Self awareness.

Bart Egnal: Right.

Alex Draper: The bigger the challenges tend to come from when there's a big dissonance between the people leader or the leadership team and their team itself. And what we found is the bigger the gaps, the bigger the performance issues.

Bart Egnal: Right. Can you give me an example without mentioning the company by name, give me an example of, one of these data gatherings that you did where you found that big cognitive distance and how that was expressed in terms of toxicity in the workplace.

Alex Draper: One that comes to mind, pharmaceutical companies, a large team within it, they came to us, the leader of that team was a new team leader and just had the gut feeling of, look, there's something fundamentally wrong here. And I want to move the performance needle. I think it's around clarity and it's around setting vision, and people aren't connecting to a higher purpose. So I'm like, well, let's test that. We ended up doing the diagnostic and it wasn't clarity, it was relationships. it was a Very transactional, high analytical team that had just been in their own silos for such a long time. But the dissonance was, I thought it was clarity. It ended up being relationships. And then we put together of course, a mechanism for how teams can actually get together, learn each other's strengths and weaknesses.

Bart Egnal: Right. So it was interesting because he had, he had an inkling that something was off. He was self aware enough as a leader to know and to call you.

Alex Draper: Yep.

Bart Egnal: And yet his ability to diagnose was ineffective. Right. And that you know, or wasn't as effective as it could be. Is that common when you, when you do this data gathering?

Alex Draper: It's, I won't put a number out there, but I would say it's more common than not. We again going back to engineering versus social science, science versus social science, we just tend to lead with our gut and intuitions and we go, this is the problem, that's really the problem that we're trying to solve is stop. It's a root cause analysis. And really your first idea of the problem more than likely is not the problem. We got to get down m to the, to the root cause.

Bart Egnal: So Alex, of course everyone listening is like, hey, I'd love to bring Alex in and do this to test my assumption, but they can't. What advice would you give to someone? And then we'll leave data gathering behind listings like hey, I want to, I want to evaluate on this care model. And I love the questions, like should they just ask people, should they create a survey monkey? Like what would you suggest is the kind of best and ah, most expeditious way to get some of this, you know, self awareness.

Alex Draper: I imagine most of us already have listening tools. Whether it's Gallup's Q12, whether you're doing Leadership 360s with Korn Ferry. I'm hoping we all do use, we all have a form of listening data. I think the biggest problem is we're not listening, we're not actually using that data real time. my advice would be don't do an engagement survey once a year, do it four times a year. Don't do a 361 every five years, do it every six months. It's look for themes in the data. If you're just doing things, data analysis once a year, you're not, how can you create themes if it's just on a, on a regular basis? So whatever listening data that you're using, just put the go figure the time into really digging into it. And once you see a theme, dig deeper and ask more questions. I think we just be more curious everybody.

Bart Egnal: I like it.

Alex Draper: Got to be more curious.

Bart Egnal: The tools are out there, use them and be curious.

Okay, so let's say you've done that. You've begun to realize where in these areas there's either a deficiency or a dissonance between what management and employees perceive how you begin to really make change. And I know when we talked about this you said there's the data gathering and at the end there's the remeasuring to see progress. And in between that you really work around these four. So maybe we go through each of the four elements of the CARE model and talk about how you work with and let's focus on the leaders and managers, how you work with them to improve their ability to practice this kind of leadership. So starting with clarity, what advice? What is the number one piece of advice you give to leaders about how to provide clarity to people?

Alex Draper: Simplicity, scales, complexity fails. clarity is same line of the same page. And the bigger the dissonance between what I see as clear expectations and what my team sees are clear expectations, the more, the more clarity and toxicity exists in the team. Clarity, is really communication. It's what comes out my mouth. The emails that I send, the text messages, the meetings that we have.

Bart Egnal: Can you think of someone you work with where this was a leader, where clarity, a need for clarity was their number one most acute development need and how you help them?

Alex Draper: Me?

Bart Egnal: Well, you are self aware.

Alex Draper: clarity is so just think of preferences, clarity, autonomy, relationships, inequity are brain cravings, right? For clarity. We needed to know where it was safe to eat in the old days, otherwise it meant death. we needed to know who was on saber tooth duty, otherwise it meant death. So we crave clarity, all of us. The challenge that we have and why it's so difficult to do it effectively is we're all different, we're unique. I am an entrepreneur. I'm a very low preference clarity kind of guy. I can revel in ambiguity, uncertainty and have done numerous times and you can give me a sentence and I'll go create a 10 page document and build a new program. just take my coo. she's a high clarity person. So when I'm communicating with her, and trying to work with her, if I operate on my level, her brain goes into threat circuit, her threat circuitry gets triggered because I'm not getting what I need from you, Alex. Therefore silence and she's off in the Back saying bad things about Alex. Alex doesn't provide clarity. Oh my God. I have to go find it now and go on Google. So that's what we're trying to stop. So in my case, I knew that I figured it out, got the feedback, did the diagnostic on myself. We actually implemented the entrepreneurial operating system to maximize clarity in our business. So once I understood where we had a clarity issue at DX and we, the roof didn't know assumptions, it's like we have a clarity. Well, what's the system? What's the training? What do we. So EOS is just, it's training and it's a system to write, overcome our clarity issues.

Bart Egnal: So yeah, I mean and as someone in the leadership communication business, what you're saying totally aligns with what we, we say. You know, you really develop self awareness that your audience was what mattered not your own preferences for communication. And then you adapted how you provide clarity to meet your audience needs rather than, you know, what your own brain craved. And so that's a great example of you know, being audience centric and, and moving that, you know, you probably thought I'm doing great. And she thought I never get what I want. And so that's that cognitive distance. You did the data and then you made that change. Great, great example.

Alex Draper: And that's the, the bias there that we all struggle with, all of us is called the projection bias. We, we tend again so minute science lesson, right? So we're, we're, nothing's changed in 300,000 years. We just swapped out Sabertooth tigers for bosses. Same rules apply. We're just trying to survive. we're processing between what, 11 and 60 million bits of information every second in order to do that effectively, because you've probably got all the listeners have two screens or five screens. You've got us on one, you've got an email over there. Too much information. We're just not ready for the technology revolution. So we've created heuristics, heuristics of brain shortcuts to process information as quickly as possible. And the negative effect of a heuristic is a bias. a bias is basically an assumption. So the projection bias is one of those 188 biases. It's quicker and easier for me to assume that you have your levels and preferences of clarity are the same as mine than it is for me to adapt. and I think that's one of the biggest challenges we all have is our projection bias.

Bart Egnal: So if you're going to provide clarity, know your audience's preferences and reach them.

Autonomy is a precipitating factor of negative emotion in the workplace

Okay, so let's move to the second one, Autonomy. I'm really curious on this one because this is, I think you've identified one of the great precipitating factors of negative emotion in the workplace. You know, I've seen my boss micromanages me, there is no word more than the kiss of death. And yet then you'll talk to the boss, they'll say I can't trust this person. that's the corollary I hear always. So tell me, take me through another great example of someone who, where you had this distance and how you worked with a leader to address it.

Alex Draper: And just to continue that quickly, one of my team members is getting his PhD and actually did his dissertation on what's the biggest contributing factor to psychological safety. It was autonomy. To your point, how can I trust you if you control me? the brain, the threat circuitry just ignites. So we worked with extremely well known pharmaceutical here in Chicago and with a specific function. this function is full of highly skilled, highly technical people. I won't say which function it is because I might know. But just think of the function within very compliance orientated. what was fascinating was the previous leader. So culture is a mirror of leadership. The previous leader was an extreme micromanager, on a monumental scale. So new leader comes in and really wants to make change. It was glaringly obvious on the diagnostic that autonomy was the biggest contributing factor. That the challenge of course is just go back to the equation. So if autonomy is the issue, so here's the, here's the interesting root cause. Even when autonomy becomes the look, there was a significant hard to change hardwired habits of micromanaging. Now when you've been on the receiving end of micromanaging for 10 years, of course that just, it means you're in compliance. You're in compliance, right? You're just whatever comes my way, I'm going to do it right. We call it comply and disengage. So that was the mechanism. So if you're trying to trying to change that type of culture from a micromanage, very highly controlled by a few people to more empowering, got to ask yourself the question, is that an autonomy issue or is that a clarity issue? Is that a relationships issue? Because if you're in a high micromanagement world, more than likely how the contribute.

Bart Egnal: I see these are not isolated, they all kind of infuse each other.

Alex Draper: So actually we didn't work on autonomy because how can you change Autonomy if people, That have a low trust environment. So we actually started with relationships.

Bart Egnal: I see.

Alex Draper: But when you look at the data for face value, you say, well the questions of the lowest and the biggest dissonance is on autonomy. But when you really understand the science of it, you've got to go. If we just work on autonomy without the trust of the people, without that relationships, we're not going to change any habits. So we actually. So good.

Bart Egnal: So we're bringing. I like this. We're getting a twofer example here. We're getting the autonomy outcome and the relationship focus. So what did you do to improve the trust and improve the relationships in.

Alex Draper: That team in that instance? We did multiple. They did, they had, they had no non work time. It was just work, work, work. So just once a month setting up just virtual, virtual meetings where the leader of that particular team just focus on non works, non work conversations. And we gave them some questions to ask just to help people just start to get into okay, it takes time. You can't just do one, you've got to do. So it's once a month non work conversations in the leader one on ones that they had with the team. Of course those one on ones were all about performance. We gave them 10 minutes at the start with a set of questions to ask and a connection before content. Just. We're not about profound crazy changes. It's just simple habitual, movement.

Bart Egnal: So you literally help them move beyond transactional work to actually human relationship building and that. And what was the impact of that? I mean it sounds so obvious, so basic. What was the impact of that work?

Alex Draper: it's still ongoing. We know that it's working because what they've asked us, they've just asked us to do is, is actually now that we are, the relationships are better, the diagnostics gone up on relationships and a little bit of autonomy. but in order to get to autonomy, they need to actually give each other feedback. So actually doing a feedback training program for all employees on how to give and receive feedback because in order to move the autonomy needle, they've got to start giving each other feedback on when the autonomy has been stolen.

Bart Egnal: Right. Or I imagine the bosses have to feel, hey, I can only give you autonomy if I'm giving you feedback on where you're not meeting my expectations. So it's like you lay the foundation there. Like we're going to have a relationship here beyond just the work. We're going to build up some kind of trust, a trust bank. And then the next step Is all right. We trust each other. We know each other's people. We got to be able to talk to each other before we can have autonomy. So, yeah, I see what you're saying. It's a great example of how all these things are co. Mingled, and how long a journey it is to fix some of these. These diagnosed skills.

Alex Draper: And that. And that's. That's our business. There's. We're not the quick fix. Don't, It.

Bart Egnal: Right.

Alex Draper: Don't just. That's why when someone asks, hey, just do some training to fix it. It's. It's. This is to change habits takes years. And. And that's. That's my deciding factor.

Bart Egnal: And what your example really shows, you know, I know your. Your taglines. You know, you're on a bad. You're on a mission to. To eradicate bad leadership. And yet bad leadership is not necessarily the intended outcome. You know, in that situation, both the workers and the managers neither had reasons to be frustrated, and the product was toxicity in bad leadership, but there wasn't intention.

So let's tackle your fourth point here, because, this is the. The equity piece. Tell me about that. What you do to foster and promote that. And give me an example so we don't.

Alex Draper: Is the answer to that. So equity, is the, uncontrollable. So just think of the care equation. clarity is a controllable. I, through my action or inaction, can either give or steal clarity. There's no net neutral here. You're either creating it or diminishing it. I can control it. how much clarity you have gives you the ability to provide autonomy. You can't provide autonomy without clarity, because if you try and do that like I tried to do that, that's called chaos and confusion. So clarity, step one gives you the data to be able to give autonomy to the right people at the right level. Use something like this skill wheel matrix to understand how to give the right levels of autonomy. That's a controllable. again, you can either give or steal autonomy. meet the people where they're at. They'll love you, trust you, no threat. Secretaries triggered. The more that you give autonomy, the more time that you have to be present and to have the time of day to build relationships, because you can't do relationships if you're micromanaging. A relationship's also controllable. You can either give it or steal it. no neutral. So think of those three as a controllable equity. Therefore, that's your leading indicators. Equity Is the lagging indicator. The bigger the gap, the bigger the dissonance in what people get and what people need in the first three drives up or down equity. The lower the equity, the lower, the lower the psychological safety, trust and performance of the team. The higher the equity, the smaller the gaps on the, on the front three. The, the more. So that's.

Bart Egnal: So it's like your score, it's like the output score of the three.

Alex Draper: Correct.

Bart Egnal: When you say equity, like what is literally like when you, how do you measure that? Like if it is a score?

Alex Draper: I have to have the four questions. But the four questions that sit there are very much fairness orientated.

Bart Egnal: So do you feel the workplace you're in and your management treat you fairly? That's really the measure of equity which.

Alex Draper: Comes from either adapting to your unique needs or one size fits all. And they don't know me. Because if you really think about it, equity is directly linked to relationships. Because how can you adapt to the unique needs of your people if you don't know what makes them unique? Unique relationships is adapted to autonomy because how do you spend the time to understand what people makes people unique if you're doing all the work yourself and trying their shoelaces and we tend to tie those shoelaces and do the work yourself and micromanage because we don't have the clarity in the first place.

Bart Egnal: So that's sort of, it's really the measurement. I like that you've got these three controllables, clarity, autonomy, relationships. And then people will feel, whether or not they feel like it's a fair place to work and therefore that they're in a place where they can do their best leadership. So it's a neat model. I can see why, why it's attractive.

So, okay, so you've done the work and you've already alluded to this. So I want to now close with this. You should remeasure. You know, you said, okay, don't just do engagement survey once a year. And I imagine if you're using your tools, like what is the optimal time? Like how long has to pass for it to be worth measuring and to have change really take place. Because to your point, yeah, it's a journey. And then how frequently is it. Every quarter is. Every six months. What would you advise?

Alex Draper: I think that the variable varies is size of data set. So small team just take an intact team, 60 people. What we're doing with that team is doing 90 day commitments. It's like EOS, right. So data comes out Deepak the data, set three commitments, work on those three commitments, move the needle after 90 days. How do we know how well we're doing? Do the data, do the data again. So it's really big data comes up, new three commitments, off we go again. So really for teams, I think you can do it every 90 days. Larger the audience, the more I believe you probably need to dial that back a bit. I think every six months at a bare minimum and something in between. So no less than six months, no more than 90 days.

Bart Egnal: And should you use the same tool that you use at the beginning so that you can have a contrast and track progress?

Alex Draper: Non, non negotiable. Right. They got to get valid data and you've got to use the same, same set of questions.

Bart Egnal: So when you're going to do the first survey, you should signal, hey, we're going to resurvey. Our goal is to bring about change based on what we learn.

Alex Draper: Yeah. And what's interesting, you know, if you say yes to this. So time right. We're all confined by the 168 work hours a week. So if the data says we've got to work on clarity and you work on clarity, just know clarity is probably going to uptick but then the A and the R are going to go down. So then you're always. The whole point of teams, we're always adapting, we're always working and we got to work on where the biggest dissonance is. Yeah.

Bart Egnal: And I think what you're showing is that great leaders develop, some self awareness. Some of it they have through kind of thinking about what they're seeing, observing. I think your framework's great one. And great leaders also use tools to measure so they can adapt their energy to, as you said, the levers that will pull the most. And so really it is a journey. Right. And as you know, I'm sure as you bring new people into the team or the company goes through new changes, that's going to affect the data, it's going to affect people. And so it's a never ending journey.

Alex Draper: It is. Right. You get one new employee to your team, that changes the dichotomy. you, you, you change business model, new, new whatever. But the one consistent we all have to deal with, you and I have talked about this is change and how you adapt to that change and the speed to which you adapt to it of course causes either again, I'll go back to toxicity or not. Right. Our inability to adapt will raise the toxicity and the trust levels within the team.

Bart Egnal: Alex, this has been a really great conversation, not the least of which because for all the years we've known each other, for all the years we've talked about your business, I will say I didn't entirely understand what you do. And now I feel like, all right, I got it. It's really cool, it's really clear, and it's always going to be necessary. And hopefully people listening are leaving with this too.

I end by asking a question and then ask you to recommend any tools that DX offers to people, you know, just kind of for their easy access. Are you. You've been this business for two decades. Are you feeling more optimistic than you were when you started about the future and state leadership? Less optimistic, neutral. Like, where are you at with bad leadership in the world and where we're headed?

Alex Draper: That's a timely question.

Bart Egnal: And maybe I won't say the world, maybe I'll just confine it to the, to the areas where you work the business world and government.

Alex Draper: I'm, transparently and honestly, I'm a little worried. Look, you know, we're hearing more often than not, look, we're going to hold this work because, look, I'm in the people first business. I use the word equity. These are two people first adapting to the unique needs of people and equity, ah, are, words that aren't being commonly used. right now what's interesting is I'm seeing an uptick in what we do with those who are doubling down of us who just like, regardless of the political and socioeconomic climate, we are going to do what's right, which tend to be private companies who can do what they want. I'm a little worried, being honest, but I think, you know, it's all about cycles.

Bart Egnal: it is, yeah. And I think, you know, that's, I mean, you're absolutely right. There are always cycles of things that, you know, are, you know, shall we say, jumped on or not. But I do think your point around the private company shows that people know, like, one thing that's never changed is people want great places to work, they want great bosses, they want to feel energized. And the fact that you have some tangible things for people to do, I think will is meaning you're meeting that need and there's hope.

Alex Draper: And I think what gives me more hope is, the saying, AI doesn't care. People do. We're starting to see glimmers of what's the differentiating factor right now, especially when it comes to leadership development. AI can really create A marketing plan far quicker than a marketing manager could have. We're going to start looking to the skills of managers, especially to their emotional intelligence, not their intelligence. So just. I think that's. That culture will be a differentiating factor in the future. We're not quite there yet, but we're on a journey and there's little diamonds in the rough. And that gives me hope.

Bart Egnal: I have hope as well.

And for people listening who are inspired, I'm sure many are by what you're saying and they're like, look, can you give me some tools? What do you have on offer for people, that they can go to and connect with you and connect with the X Learning.

Alex Draper: Read the book.

Bart Egnal: See, and the title is care to Win? And this is your new book, right? New book, Congratulations.

Alex Draper: Came out May of last year, second edition's coming out because I've already learned a lot. Took four years to write and a lot changes in four years. So that's a really good place.

Bart Egnal: We'll link to it in the show notes. So get the book. That's the number one way to. To.

Alex Draper: Yeah, get the book. I post every day on LinkedIn. You know that you find me on LinkedIn or on my website, dx-learning.com look at the insights page and blogs. You know, we put out two blogs a month on a lot of this. Just sharing our best practices, giving people the tips and clues about how to lead the people first movement.

Bart Egnal: I love it. Well, Alex, thanks for coming on the podcast and helping to eradicate talks.

Alex Draper: thanks for having me. Love the conversation. Good, luck to you all out there trying to do what's right.

Bart Egnal: I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspire podcast and the conversation that I had with our guests. And hopefully you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational.

If you're enjoying the pod, I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it. I love the comments, appreciate the reviews and the visibility allows others to discover the pod. It's really how word of mouth has spread the Inspire podcast to so many listeners and helped us keep making this great content. Stay tuned. We'll be back in two weeks with another inspiring content conversation. Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and Inspire.