Play Your Way to Inspiring Leadership with Kirsten Anderson

In this episode, Bart speaks with Kirsten Anderson about the power of play and how integrating play can make you a more effective and inspiring leader.

Kirsten, a certified LEGO(r) Serious Play(r) specialist and consultant with The Humphrey Group, talks about why playfulness is so important for leaders, how we often miss opportunities to incorporate play into our work and how to go about adopting a playful mindset. She talks about how playful can not just be an add-on to the practice of leadership but the benefits of weaving it into everything from how you run meetings to how you develop talent and how you tackle goals together as a team. Kirsten draws on deep experience in this field to bring compelling examples and practical ideas to our conversation.

Show Notes

0:33 Show Intro
1:07 Introducing Kirsten
2:15 How Kirsten got started in her career
3:31 Toyologist
4:06 Resident play expert on global news
4:32 Sold the business
4:57 What were their play prescriptions
5:34 Kids stopping playing younger
5:51 Why were kids playing less?
6:32 How do we get adults to play?
7:18 Should we separate work and play?
8:04 Puritan work ethic
8:37 Playfulness and flow - are they related?
9:30 Play and playfulness
10:03 There is no creativity/innovation without play 
10:24 Playful mindset for a leader
11:42 Fear of judgement 
12:22 The stigma around being playful
12:59 Living in a VUCA world
13:45 Creating engagement
14:38 What about gamification in education?
15:50 Playwashing
17:07 Fun is different for different people
18:27 3 ways to infuse play into the work world
18:50 What is "The Employee Experience"?
19:18 Gratitude and recognition
19:33 Applied improv
19:53 How to bring play into a meeting 'check-in', for example
20:07 The 'weather report check-in'
20:59 Cat picture check-in
21:41 Communication to break down silos
21:57 Practice playfulness with low-stakes activities
22:43 Culture of continuous feedback
23:11 What is LEGO serious play
24:30 The importance of equal time
26:06 Prioritize creative problem-solving
26:30 Yes, and... practice
27:09 Playfulness can build psychological safety 
29:49 Bart talks about Lego for adults
32:20 How can people find out more?
33:53 Outro

Audio Transcript 

Kirsten Anderson: People think that play is the opposite of work. And really, play is what makes work more productive, more efficient, more effective, and we need playfulness. We're wired for play. Mammals play, and we are mammals. So in our brains, we need to play to practice what we're going to do. And you can even see us in some of the Humphrey Group's trainings, where we do role-playing, and we actually get to play with scenarios.

Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire. I'm your host, Bart Egnal, president and CEO of the Humphrey Group. And if you've ever asked yourself how can you develop an authentic leadership presence, or how can you tell stories that have people hanging off every word, well, then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives. This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work but also in their life.

Bart Egnal: So, my guest on today's episode of the Inspire podcast is Kirsten Anderson. And, Kirsten, you are a consultant with the Humphrey Group. We're very privileged to have you on their team. Of course, we could talk leadership communication, but it's really your main practice, where you are the founder and head of Integrate Play, where you bring a sense of how to infuse playfulness into the workplace to tackle great business challenges. You're a certified Lego Serious Play facilitator, as evidenced by the Lego in your background. Kirsten, welcome to the Inspire podcast.

Kirsten Anderson: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

Bart Egnal: It's a pleasure. I am, as you know, a Lego fan, spent God knows how much on Lego. And so I've always been fascinated by play, and I've had the privilege of learning from you about how play can be used to help people engage different parts of their brain and tackle some of the greatest business challenges. But before we get into how people listening can do that and show leadership, let's talk about your story.

Bart Egnal: You started in toys. You're now a play expert and a speaker. So, tell me about how you got to this point in your life.

Kirsten Anderson: Yeah, I guess it was inevitable that I ended up in this space, not that I knew that this space existed. As a child, you don't grow up and think, oh, I'm going to become a playologist, or I'm going to be working on Lego as an adult. Funnily enough, I didn't even play with Lego that much as a kid, but I did love imaginative play. I had a mom who owned a preschool as a child, and then she went on to work in advertising and own her own business. My dad is a psychologist, an organizational psychologist. So I seem to have blended those two things in the work that I'm doing. But I went to college and got sucked out of college by my mom, who had a toy store at the time. And so I ended up managing her store, traveling the world, buying toys for her. But then she wanted to retire, so I had to figure out, okay, what am I going to do? So I ended up becoming certified in coaching. I thought I was going to become a coach, but this was like in the year 2000 and not like today.

Bart Egnal: Where you can't throw a rock without hitting a certified coach.

Kirsten Anderson: They thought I was going to be a soccer coach or something. No, no. And I had to explain what coaching was. And I ended up using it actually because I ended up opening my own toy store.

Bart Egnal: Your own toy store?

Kirsten Anderson: My own toy store. A toy store. And I wanted to differentiate it, of course, from all the other stores out there. So we wore white lab coats, we were toyologists, we had prescription pads. And we listened to our customers, to what they wanted and what they needed and what the person they were buying for needed. And so then we would write prescriptions for play and give it to them with a bunch of ideas on what they could get. And this got national news coverage right out the gate. And we got a spot on global TV as their resident play expert for about twelve years. I would be on there talking about how play impacts all ages. And that was once a week around the holidays and once a month for the rest of the year. Finally, I was like, look, I've been in the toy industry for 25 years. If I kept being asked to speak, if I'm going to do something, now is the time. And so I sold the store within six weeks of having that thought. And it was very quick. And now I'm going to be a speaker. And so I built this business, discovered Lego Serious Play after the fact, and it was like, oh, the light shone down like, this is amazing.

Bart Egnal: So let me just jump in. Let's just step back for a moment. You're running your toy store. I love the concept. The white lab coats, playologists. What kind of prescriptions would you give people for play?

Kirsten Anderson: Yeah. So if you were like an uncle coming in and you didn't have kids, sometimes those people wanted something really noisy and messy, so we would help find them something that was noisy and messy. Like revenge uncles really liked revenge toys for their siblings' kids. Some people were looking for something that was very academic and STEM-oriented. So we'd go in that way, or more imaginative play. But what I noticed was that kids were playing less and they were stopping playing younger and younger. In the industry, they call that compression. And so when I started in 1990, kids would be playing with toys. People would be buying toys for up to 13 or 14 years old. By the time I left, it was like, why is that?

Bart Egnal: Why was play stopping earlier?

Kirsten Anderson: Well, exactly. That was the big question that got me excited about working in this field. Because I thought kids are either being over-scheduled or consumed with screens. And there isn't an age group above them that is modeling how to live a different life. And so I thought, well, if we could get middle schoolers playing more, then we would have the younger kids playing more. And if we could, how do we get middle schoolers playing more? Well, then we need the older kids to play like the teenagers. Well, teenagers, they just want to be adults. So how do we get adults to play? And when I looked at adults, really prioritizing it in the workplace, that's going to trickle down to your evenings and weekends and playing more on your evenings and weekends. So that's the mission is really to have that trickle-down effect that as people value it and see the benefits even within their workplace, then that's because people do play on the evenings and weekends.

Bart Egnal: Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, look at the expression of work hard, play hard. There's a bifurcation in people's minds between work which is purposeful and you're paid for it, and play which is fun and whimsical. So should that, let me start by asking you, now that you're in this business, is that distinction and delineation accurate?

Kirsten Anderson: I would say no. I would say that people think that play is the opposite of work. And really play is what makes work more productive, more efficient, more effective. And we need playfulness. We're wired for play. Like all mammals play. And we are mammals. So in our brains, we need to play to practice what we're going to do. And you can even see us in some of the Humphrey Group's trainings where we do role-playing and we actually get to play with scenarios.

Bart Egnal: Always fun. Like that's, I think, another thing. Or is it work sometimes?

Kirsten Anderson: Well, it's an interesting, you know, how we define work. And there's a Puritan work ethic that gets inserted here, that work must be hard and strenuous. And sometimes it is. It's back-breaking, and we're doing things we don't want to do. But when we're doing our best work, when we're working to our strengths, then work feels like play. That's the goal, if we can make work feel like play.

Bart Egnal: And is that okay?

Bart Egnal: When we're incorporating playfulness, how does that fit with being in flow? I know we all chase this, you know, being in flow state in our work, where time just passes like this podcast, I'm going to wake up and we're done, you know, because we're in flow.

Kirsten Anderson: Yeah, exactly. And Czechs mean, I actually played with the word play and switch to flow, and flow and play, to me, are very interchangeable. So when you are in flow, that is your play state. You're losing track of time. It's not too easy, it's not too hard. It's that beautiful balance in between. So when you think of a flow state, think of that as your play zone.

Bart Egnal: And so we can think about bringing play, getting to that flow state, getting to play, doing what we love. And how does that fit? You've used a word, playfulness. Play and playfulness help me and help people listening understand the differences.

Kirsten Anderson: People think of play as an activity, something we do, an action, whereas playfulness is more of an attitude or an approach to problem-solving, how we're communicating, how we're collaborating, or how we're innovating. All of those things are impacted by us being playful. And I take a hard line and say, some people might think this is controversial, but there is no creativity, there is no innovation without play, without a playful approach.

Bart Egnal: So getting the approach, you say the approach is playful. Is it fair to say it's like a mindset and an attitude to get to a state of play or a state of flow?

Kirsten Anderson: Yes. A playful mindset as a leader doesn't necessarily mean you're making jokes and skipping down the hallway.

Bart Egnal: We're going to play foosball today. That's not playful, right?

Kirsten Anderson: It doesn't have to necessarily involve that. If that's your play style, that's great, too. But it could just be in your mind about how you're approaching everything.

Bart Egnal: So we've talked about young people, how play dies as you get to the workplace, there's a separation between play and work. But for many, the best moments, creativity, enjoyment, flow, come by approaching things with a sense of playfulness. So let's shift it.

Bart Egnal: You've talked about leadership and how leaders can model and foster play. Why today do leaders fail to do that? Because I think a lot of people listening would say there's no playfulness in my work.

Kirsten Anderson: There's a lot of fear when it comes to the word play and even fun at work. And that comes from hundreds of years of programming that we've been taught that we need to be head down. People fear judgment. They fear that their competitors, colleagues, direct reports, anyone in their space will judge them for being unprofessional, not serious, unproductive—all the things they associate with play. But really, it's about connecting emotionally, about reframing complex challenges, and being adaptable, which is a huge asset as a leader.

Bart Egnal: Engagement with people. If you can help them approach their work with playfulness, they're going to be more engaged in the challenges you're pursuing. So, really the message I'm taking away is as a leader, you should try and infuse playfulness. Not only will you and your people enjoy it more, but it's going to unlock creativity. It's going to lead to more flow state, more employee retention. Is that fair?

Kirsten Anderson: Yeah.

Bart Egnal: And the Puritanical work mindset. Work doesn't have to suffer.

Kirsten Anderson: Absolutely.

Bart Egnal: Work doesn't have to suffer.

Kirsten Anderson: Absolutely. And this goes for education as well, not just work. There are shifts in both the workplace and education.

Bart Egnal: Often where they say it's cloaked in the term gamification. Is that a different way of coming at things?

Kirsten Anderson: Gamification has lots of positive attributes, but there's also a dark side. It's like manipulation. There's a competitive side to it, and not everyone's play personality aligns with that. Some people are very averse to competition and prefer collaboration.

Bart Egnal: What characteristics? And if you're a leader, you're thinking about the kind of playfulness, like you say, different play styles, what are we looking to ultimately achieve? So for leaders listening, say, okay, I want to create a more playful environment. What is the end goal? And then I know you have three strategies that you're going to share with people.

Kirsten Anderson: One thing I like to emphasize is that this isn't playwashing. We're not going in and playwashing.

Bart Egnal: I love it.

Kirsten Anderson: Yeah, I like playwashing. Frank Matias came up with that. A lot of big tech companies put in foosball tables with the knowledge that playing would get ideas flowing and people would be more creative. Unfortunately, that was playwashing because the attitude was not, yeah, go play there. It was more like, keep your head down. Keep working. So it wasn't genuine.

Bart Egnal: Cause we have play here for you to take a break.

Kirsten Anderson: Exactly. Some cultures, like Zappos, had a fun culture, and it was demonstrated in how they decorated their desks, interacted, and engaged in activities. But there is an element of fun being different for different people that we need to consider. Playfulness should be by choice, inviting and giving permission to be playful, rather than forcing it.

Bart Egnal: Rather than forcing it. So we’re trying to pull people to play. We don't want to be playwashing, and we want to be respectful and inclusive of all the play styles.

Bart Egnal: Okay, so I know you have three strategies that people can use to infuse play and playfulness into their leadership. What is strategy one?

Kirsten Anderson: One key strategy is to enhance the employee experience, which will also enhance the customer experience.

Bart Egnal: And what is the employee experience? How would you define that?

Kirsten Anderson: It's how we are experiencing our work and interactions with others. You can have a positive or a negative employee experience. We're seeing that 70% of employees are disengaged, and 43% are feeling disconnected from their coworkers. So how do we improve those numbers? One way is through gratitude and recognition as a foundational piece. I've worked with an engineering firm where we did activities based around applied improv. I'm not an improv performer, but I am applied improv.

Bart Egnal: But you play one on facilitator.

Kirsten Anderson: I take the lessons from the stage of how improv teams work together and apply them in the workspace.

Bart Egnal: And what would be a way to bring play like me? Because I think a lot of people say, oh, you know, how are you? It's a basic check-in, and then, of course, you don't want to go. What would be someone listening says, okay, how could I start the meeting? I have five minutes. How can I infuse a bit of playfulness into this meeting?

Kirsten Anderson: For check-ins, sometimes I start with a weather check-in. If you were a weather reporter reporting on your own state of being, are you feeling like thunder and lightning, rainbows, clouds, sunshine, wind blowing through? People will describe it in different ways and give a little brief context. It's enough for you to know, oh, okay. Your father just passed away, your dog is in the vet right now, or you're super energetic. All different things come up in a quick check-in like that.

Bart Egnal: You can also love the way you're doing. Sorry to jump in, but I'm just smiling here when I hear it because instead of just saying, how are you? It's a way to bring play into that. That is evocative.

Kirsten Anderson: Yeah. And if you're doing it virtually, I've done it with pictures of different cats or artwork where people are identifying which one, like one through ten, they identify the most with at that moment. It doesn't mean that's how you are all day, but how are you right in this moment? It helps us as we're leading a meeting or facilitating something. If someone is really quiet, well, maybe that's why they're quiet, or are they getting what they need?

Bart Egnal: That's such a great example of taking something that is kind of an obligation. Oh, we're going to do the check-in and bringing play to it. So really helpful, simple way to enhance the employee experience without a lot of work.

Bart Egnal: Okay, so let's go to your second strategy, which is about collaboration through communication to break down silos. Tell me what that means and how play, how leaders listening can begin to infuse play to achieve that.

Kirsten Anderson: This is a common request I get from government and corporations. When we're playful, one of the things about being playful with each other is it's a low-stakes way to practice something that might be higher stakes in real life. When we do these low-stakes play activities, we connect with people and humanize our colleagues. Increasing that frequency and quality of that feedback loop of talking to each other about what's working and what's not working creates supportive accountability. It reduces negative bias that can creep in when feedback is only given during performance reviews. I've done Lego Serious Play as part of this.

Bart Egnal: I know you taught me as a non-initiate, and I was really excited to do. I facilitated Lego Serious Play with one of my clients, trying to channel your expertise. But for those listening who don't know what Lego Serious Play is, what is, in short, the exercise all about?

Kirsten Anderson: It's well named Serious Play because it's taking play seriously, and we're talking about serious, deep topics. It can be quite strategic. We do this for strategic leadership retreats as well. You give a powerful question, and the team builds a model with Lego based on the answer. The question could be about any objective the team is working on. You don't have to be an expert builder. You could have never touched Lego before because it is intuitive. People build a model based on their answer to the question, and then every single person in the room gets equal time to describe what they built. That equal time is so important because so often when we have these meetings, 20% of the room is doing 80% of the talking. And that is not utilizing all the brilliance and diversity of thought and experience in the room. These playful activities where we divide up time equally can really break down barriers, bring introverts into the conversation, and lead to more innovation in how we're approaching our products and services.

Bart Egnal: It is a really amazing tool to foster collaboration, breakdown silos. I think about the client I worked with. It was so much fun under your guidance. What I had them do was each split into the three functions of the business, and they each built a model using Lego of their function, and then they built a model of what they were aspiring to do. Then we pushed the bases together and had to figure out what the links and blocks were between them. So it was literally a physical embodiment of collaboration.

Kirsten Anderson: Yeah, those landscapes.

Bart Egnal: It's a great example of how play and playfulness can unlock collaborative thinking, unlock a different part of your brain, and break down the silos.

Bart Egnal: Okay, so let’s go to your third strategy.

Kirsten Anderson: The third strategy is about prioritizing creative problem-solving. When we're doing creative problem-solving, it's often about innovating our products, services, and processes. One of the tactics that supports that is the Yes, And tool from improv. Instead of shutting down conversations, we acknowledge the idea that was put forth and add on to it. This principle helps us move things to a new place. It does require a foundation of psychological safety, as leaders need to build that safety for people to feel comfortable speaking up. Playfulness can help build that psychological safety.

Bart Egnal: Your mention of the Yes, And exercise is so spot on. We have a long history of improv performers in the Humphrey Group, and we've had the great privilege of turning the lens inward at many of our retreats doing this. It's a really simple exercise for anyone listening. If you want to begin to infuse some playfulness, you can start with the Yes, But. One person starts with something, and the other person says, yes, but. You do that for a minute, and you'll feel deflated, exhausted, and uninspired. Then you flip, try it again with Yes, And. It is remarkable, the feeling that you will have. It is such a powerful differentiator just from that simple framing tool. It will change your mindset, and you will feel supported rather than pushed down. It’s a great way to begin infusing some play into a creativity session.

Kirsten Anderson: People fear that it means they have to agree with everything, but that's not the idea of Yes, And. It's about acknowledging and building on ideas rather than shutting them down.

Bart Egnal: Yes, and I know I'm someone who's inherently like, no, I've done that. No, can't do that. Thought about that. And, you know, maybe 90% of the time, I'm right, but 10% of the time, I'm going to shut down something that I've never thought of, and that's the power of Yes, And. Why close that door? I think it's a great example.

Kirsten Anderson: And, yeah, maybe we tried it before, but we’re going to try it again in a different way, at a different time, with different people. So, like, all those little different aspects to be open-minded. I mean, that’s the piece of playfulness—being open-minded, being curious.

Bart Egnal: It’s so powerful, and you never know where it goes. And it is a bit of a loss of control. Right. But I think that’s the fun of it. And, you know, I think about, you know, back to Lego, and my wife and I went to Denmark last year. I sent you some pictures because I knew you’re a fellow Lego geek. What’s amazing about Lego is how right now one of their biggest profitability segments is adults. They’ve actively legitimized play for adults. It used to be a guilty pleasure, but now with these sets explicitly marketed to adults, they’ve realized we want to play. Adults are wired to play. Humans are wired to play. And so it’s great to know that leaders can incorporate that sense of play and playfulness into their work, and employees will appreciate it.

Kirsten Anderson: And Lego actually, at one time, believe it or not, considering how successful they are, one of the most profitable family-owned companies in the world, they actually were struggling financially. And they went to these university professors and said, look, we believe in constructivism, as an educational model, we have these tools. Isn’t there a way we can use this in our business? And they actually invented Lego Serious Play, and they started using it in the company.

Bart Egnal: So they used it to find their way out.

Kirsten Anderson: Find their way out. One of the many ways they got.

Bart Egnal: Licensing Star Wars at outrageous prices and licensure, which I pay.

Kirsten Anderson: Yeah. And the Lego foundation does some amazing work in the world, too, just bringing play to all ages.

Bart Egnal: Thank you for helping provide some clarity around the power of play, the importance of playfulness, and how it's tied to leadership. I mean, I think it is. We're never too young, never too old to play, and we should continue playing. And I always find, you know, I used to teach a lot more courses, but I know you're still heavily in the classroom. Whenever I'd hear people laughing and smiling, I knew learning was happening. Play and work are not mutually exclusive. In fact, just the opposite. We should seek to merge them and foster an environment of playfulness for the benefit of all.

Kirsten Anderson: Yeah, humor is a great indicator in meetings as well. And it’s not about being funny, but just using humor to drive sales, help with resilience, and combat burnout. There are so many different applications.

Bart Egnal: You’ve provided so much great intel today, but I know it’s just the tip of the iceberg. If people want to learn more from you or they want to read about play and how to bring it into leadership, what do you advise?

Kirsten Anderson: There are so many books I could recommend. "Trying to Perform" is quite an academic book, but it shows how play is a prime motivator. "Play" by Dr. Stuart Brown is foundational. "The Fun Habit" by Michael Rucker is also a great one. There are so many more: "The Art of Gathering," "Rituals," "Roadmap," "The Playful Rebellion" by Gary Ware. I could go on, but I’m happy to send people a list.

Bart Egnal: And so people want to connect with you. I know they should follow you on LinkedIn. And I know you produce some good content there.

Kirsten Anderson: Well, thank you. Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok.

Bart Egnal: Sounds like it. That’s enough.

Bart Egnal: And you’re on this podcast, so I really appreciate you coming on the Inspired podcast. I felt this was very playful, so I’m smiling a lot, and which means I’m probably learning a lot and tapping into new parts of my brain. So thanks so much for being a guest on the Inspire podcast.

Kirsten Anderson: Thank you for having me. Keep playing.

Bart Egnal: I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspire podcast and the conversation I had with our guests, and hopefully, you left with some really practical, tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational. If you’re enjoying the pod, I’ll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it. I love the comments, appreciate the reviews, and the visibility allows others to discover the pod. It’s really how word of mouth has spread the Inspire podcast to so many listeners and helped us keep making this great content. Stay tuned. We’ll be back in two weeks with another inspiring conversation. Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and inspire.