What Leaders can and should Learn from Great Marketers with Nathan Yeung

What do leadership and marketing have in common? In this episode of The Inspire Podcast, Bart sits down with renowned marketing expert Nathan Yeung to uncover surprising parallels between these two disciplines. Nathan talks about why "customers are lazy", shares a powerful 3-step process for building trust that's at the heart of marketing effectiveness, and reveals how leaders can adopt marketing strategies to inspire and connect with their audiences effectively.

 

Through relatable anecdotes and real-world marketing examples, Nathan discusses the importance of crafting messages that resonate, when leaders should embrace a marketer’s mindset—and when they shouldn’t—and why big company messages often fall flat in leadership contexts. He also shares practical tips for communicating effectively, no matter your leadership role.

 

Show Notes

00:27 Show intro
01:07 Introducing Nathan
02:03 Reaching consumers
02:55 Nathan's background and how he got into consumer trust
03:26 Marketing has a function that hasn't been very structured
04:08 Is "best in class" hearsay?
04:51 What works - consumer psychology
05:06 Writing a book is hard
05:41 We are just lazy 
05:54 We are naturally averse to dealing with friction 
06:26 We only support things we inherently believe
07:12 People don't know why the "trust"
08:49 Bart talks about the curse of knowledge
09:21 The trust triangle
09:56 Defining the trust triangle
10:37 Pseudo logic in marketing
10:48 It's not logic - it's a shortcut 
11:32 Don't trust strangers? vs Uber or Lyft?
13:38 Factors in building trust
15:43 Authenticity
18:29 Patagonia example
19:14 If you're not going to live up to your stated values, better not have them in the first place 
19:49 Empathy
24:55 Nathan's advice to leaders
25:18 Make your message simple
26:14 It's hard to get to clarity and focus
26:55 No one can interpret your message for you
27:37 Make it as easy as possible for them 
28:44 Positive feedback
31:40 Where can people find out more?
32:23 Thank yous

Show Transcript 

Nathan Yeung: We are naturally adverse to dealing with friction, and given any amount of opportunity, we will find something to support an idea or a belief, regardless of whether or not how factually correct it is. Because we're just naturally averse to spend the mental energy to face that challenge.

Bart Egnal: Welcome to the Inspire Podcast, where we examine what it takes to intentionally inspire.

I'm your host, Bart Egnal, President and CEO of The Humphrey Group. And if you've ever asked yourself, how can you develop an authentic leadership presence? Or, how can you tell stories that inspire? Have people hanging off every word. Then this podcast is for you. And it's not just for executives.

This is a podcast for anyone who wants to influence and inspire others in their work, but also in their life.

So my guest on today's episode of the Inspire Podcast is Nathan Yeung, founder of Find Your Audience. And Nathan, it's unfair to call you a B2B marketing guru. I know we're recording this on the one week before you speak to 1700 peopl at an audience. You're a recognized expert on trust, on the psychology of the consumer.

You're joining me from Vancouver. Welcome to the Inspired Podcast.

Nathan Yeung: Thanks Bart. Appreciate being here. And I know it's been a little challenge for us to coordinate, but happy to be here today. All good. All good things are worth waiting for.

Bart Egnal: And, it's, I know we did our prep and, I think when we first talked, what are we going to, what are we going to talk about?

Because the Inspired Podcast is really, leadership communication focused. We look at. How do we Think about being more effective reaching and inspiring audiences. And when we got into our conversation, you've done some really interesting research and work into how consumers think I'm going to steal your thunder a bit.

Why consumers are inherently lazy and how to build trust. And I thought, And then I'll let you get going. I thought, in this day and age reaching consumers is like reaching audiences for anyone in business or in any organization where you want to communicate, you really need to begin with understanding how they think and how they.

Want to be spoken to before you can understand how to reach them And then so I think you'll have some great insights on that and I think the second thing is trust we're at a time where trust in institutions at an all time low including in business people used to join organizations.

I'm gonna spend my whole career I have trust that the company will be my future and now it's Let's see where I want to go tomorrow And so I think you've got some other important insights to share for later So with that, maybe take us into an intro And to you, how you got into this world of consumers and trusts.

And we can go from there.

Nathan Yeung: So I have a weird background. I went to school for marketing and then I was in finance right at a university. I was a VP of finance working out in China doing some fancy investment banking stuff. And then I was a management consultant. So you go how did Nathan, do marketing?

What marketing was when I went to school with, because I actually cared to really be passionate about it. And that, and I always did. And. And I think what was really interesting through all of my experiences was No matter the business that I was working in, marketing was like one of those functions that was not very structured.

It wasn't, there wasn't this like one single playbook that every company that I ever worked for had, and that posed an intellectual challenge. And I think through that intellectual challenge, that's where I gravitated towards because I find that challenge fun to deal with. It's frustrating but it's fun at the same time and it gives me kind of the motivation for me to do what I do every single day.

And so how did that turn into kind of the consumer psychology piece was I recognized that as I was going through my profession and my experiences, I was leveraging a lot of what. People would call best in class, which, for all, intensive purposes was hearsay. And my hearsay is take studies from other people, right?

Bart Egnal: If they said it, it must be true.

Nathan Yeung: And so one of the things I wanted to do was because obviously I went to school for marketing, but I certainly didn't go to school for consumer psychology and I wanted to come bring it back to base. And what I wanted to do was I wanted to attach. All these best in class things that one, I learned from others or to learn from my own experiences and bring it back to like a fundamental foundation.

And that was to me, science. So if I could attach all the things that I know work, attach all the things that I saw work well in the market and bring that back to the basis of consumer psychology, that's backed on primary research and some solid math I would feel more comfortable that it's actually best in class.

And so I went on this journey of writing this book and for anyone who has ever written a book God bless you if you know a very good process for me There's [00:05:00] none. It's just like having written one and that'll

Bart Egnal: be the only one I write. It is a brutal process

Nathan Yeung: And Bart, I'm sure like for me.

It was a love hate relationship You did the book and then you didn't want to touch it, right? You're just like I hate you And I went through my second edit which was actually the how the lazy theme came about and it was because I was going through the entire book and I just recognized I was like geez like we are just We are lazy people like all if there's one core theme through all the research i've combed through it's like we're just lazy

Bart Egnal: And what does that mean?

What when you say we're lazy, can you define what you mean by that? It means we are

Nathan Yeung: We're naturally adverse to dealing with friction and given any amount of opportunity, we will find something to support an idea or a belief regardless of whether or not how factually correct it is, because we're just naturally adverse to spend the mental energy [00:06:00] to face that challenge.

And what that means to me in various contexts is We will only ultimately support things that we just inherently believe, and we will go to great lengths of shortcutting that logic. Which is why I think that's where the trust framework comes in, because it makes how we develop trust a very interesting thing, and also showcases how little we actually know about how we develop trust.

So in consumer psychology, There's something called the illusion of explanatory depth and it's something that we all ultimately do, and that's mistaking the difference between familiarity of a subject, Versus in depth mechanical knowledge of something. Can you give me an example? Trust. It's a perfect example.

You go, do you trust your friend? Go, yes. And you go, why do you trust your friend? And you mumble, right? You don't, you, certainly I know there's certain friends where, it's [00:07:00] like he's been my friend for 20 years. He's never broken anything. Okay. But if we break all that down and then apply what that one friend has compared to anything else you trust, can you apply those same rules?

And more often than not, you'll go no, because I'll ask you another question. Why do you trust Uber? Why do you trust the government? Why do you trust the currency? And if you think about trust, it's one of those things where you go yeah, of course I know it. It's because it's an incredibly familiar to you and very important to you.

But do you actually know what are the variables? What are the factors? What are the points of impact of influence that actually build trust for you? And how do you consume that? And I don't think people know that or they certainly don't recognize that. And that's where I think heuristics come in play.

And where I'll say very truthfully, you do trust strangers because that's sometimes what you have to do in certain situations, which is. Every

Bart Egnal: time you get into an Uber, my wife actually, just amazingly, she's in New York right now. She just took her first Uber and it was wild. She's I can't believe this too.

[00:08:00] She's ridden the Ubers with me, but she'd never called them before. She got in, and it worked but I think, a couple of things that really stand out to me from what you've shared, and then I want to talk about your trust triangle. When we think about communication we, you talk about this idea that the audience is lazy.

And I do think it's right. When you communicate to someone, a lot of, and there's this concept that you're probably familiar with called the curse of knowledge, right? As we develop deep expertise, we lose the ability to understand that others don't have it. And we talk as though they do. And so from a communication standpoint, what that means is a lot of people communicate informationally, right?

They think about, I'm just kidding. Dump all this information, you're going to filter it. But audiences are lazy, right? And that's why you have to give them. You have to do the thinking for them. And give them the story. And everything that resonates that you're saying is this idea of like why do I want to trust this person?

Why do I want to follow that leader, right? A lot of people say, I follow that leader. I believe in that person. I work with them. But it's really hard to define. And so I think there's neat implications. And I guess your trust triangle is really your, [00:09:00] Codification of how you build trust. Is that right?

Nathan Yeung: Yeah I it's not my trust triangle. So I'll apply my trust to you. It sounds like I'm going to practice authenticity of my own trust triangle. And when I brag, it's actually from Harvard business review. So it's not mine. I felt like it was a good framework. So I leverage it. I'd certainly do not claim that I'm the author of this.

That would ruin the trust triangle for myself and my brand. Yeah,

Bart Egnal: that would be a great irony, right?

Nathan Yeung: And so the trust triangle is empathy, authenticity, and logic. And I thought they were all great things. And what's beautiful is. Is when you look at those three points and you apply it across multiple things, whether that is in marketing whether that is in your own relationships, like your like personal intimate relationships even into your day to day life it's very apparent how all of them come to play

And I think I, and I think it is something where you I think everyone would be fascinated to come to the conclusion as to actually why they trust and also probably fascinated as to maybe how many times they actually take shortcuts.

So when the [00:10:00] logic part, I actually define logic and marketing as actually pseudo logic. So there's a branch from the logic and I call it pseudo logic because It's actually you're building trust through a heuristic which is a mental shortcut So you define it to yourself as logic, but it's not actually it's a shortcut.

And it's not actually fundamentally based on something. It's fundamentally based on your brain Taking the shortcut to get to a logical outcome that supports your belief.

Bart Egnal: Okay, so what you're saying is, when we tell ourselves we've been logical in forming trust, we really reverse engineered that, we just took a cheat, and then we're like, but actually I have this logic of how I reached that?

Is that right?

Nathan Yeung: Yeah and I think a great example and, you nailed it when you said Uber, in my SAS North, I actually opened up with that. So SAS North I'm assuming Bart, we're not going to release this till next week. But my SAS North is, I opened up with the crowd and I go, hands up and you, anyone who has ever heard their parents say, don't trust strangers, [00:11:00] everyone's going to put up their hands.

And then my next slide is I go, okay, in the last 30 days, how many of you have taken an Uber or Lyft? And the funny part, I go it's funny, right? If you think about it you are trusting a stranger who is operating a motor vehicle. And even in this instance, you trust them so much. You may or may not actually put your seatbelt on.

Yeah And so so so question yourself What does trust mean? Would you trust uber if I showed you the recent news article where someone became a paraplegic from an uber car accident? And they're not taking any responsibility for it because oh, by the way Did you check your privacy policy saying that you can't get anything from them right in a car accident?

So so do you so why do you trust uber then? Why do you trust lyft? And I think that's where the branding shortcuts, brands take it's massive. And given real factual instances of which I [00:12:00] just gave everyone, I gave everyone a very valid thing. When you're in an Uber and you get in a car accident, there is a I'm going to say a good 75 percent chance you are SOL.

You have no insurance. And they're not going to support you and it's going to be up and no battle. How does that make you feel? And a lot of people are going to say, that's pretty bad. And they'll go are you going to stop an Uber? And they'll be like I don't think that's going to be me.

Bart Egnal: Do you still take Uber, David? I do. Okay. So this trust, this logic, Is like begs the question then of how do you build that trust checking the logic box if in fact It's not a logical argument that leads you to build it

Nathan Yeung: That's a so that goes right into some of the things I talk in my sass nurse I we're actually if you really look at price place the four p's product of the original kind of the marketing model Which i'm sure everyone talked about in business school or even your business class in high school You All those things are applicable to developing patterns that [00:13:00] essentially create trust in your brand.

For example, a majority of people do not trust a product when they have a single price, especially if you're not knowledgeable within that product. So typically price becomes this factor that allows them to make their own decisions. And here's another great example of something that, so again, Bart, taking a part of your playbook, communicating with something that everyone knows.

When you go into the Tylenol section, Can you honestly tell me the difference between Tylenol Flu and Tylenol Cold? And can you honestly tell me, if you actually even know what those ingredients do anything for you, nonetheless the dosage? But you know what you can do? You can figure out the difference between 12 pills, And 10 pills and the difference between 26 and 24.

And so you will naturally. So it allows you to make a choice. Yeah. In that sense. And you will naturally make your own judgment as to what is better for you based on [00:14:00] something that they gave you to make that choice. And then you will trust in yourself and the brand more by doing so. If Tylenol only gave you one Tylenol for everything, shots, flu headaches. You wouldn't believe them as much.

Bart Egnal: Because you'd say, this is a, it's really fascinating. I think, one thing I'm taking away is, you want to have, you want to be able to reach some sort of sense that you've made a logical choice, but also we have to put our trust in someone or an organization, like a brand, because to, it's decision fatigue if we couldn't choose.

And I think, from a leadership standpoint. That does mean there's this opportunity to both be that voice of trust, but also give choice. So let's just park logic for a moment, because that's, I think we've both said you want to give people, I don't want to call it the illusion of logic, but some choice that allows them to make a decision.

But let's contrast that to the second part of the Harvard triangle, which is authenticity. What does that

Nathan Yeung: mean? So authenticity, so I actually struggle with this because I think it, to me, my [00:15:00] definition of borders on a lot of different things, but authenticity to me is more like transparency and consistency of that transparency.

And so that, that's where I think authenticity in itself plays with the logic part, because if you're authentic and I say, Hey, this means a lot to me. Your actions should logically follow that authentic communication, right? So I say, Hey team members, what's really important to me is to empower you, do your job.

And how I do that is by giving you as much freedom as possible to give you the highest probability of success in your role. And then I think what, where the authenticity goes away is when you demonstrate, Hey, so and so here's the project parameters. I need this tomorrow. Okay. And by the way, I don't care what you think about the instructions.

I need it followed to a T. Then you go so it's really

Bart Egnal: The cognitive dissonance when your actions don't match message. I was having [00:16:00] lunch yesterday with a client. He used to be a EVP at a global insurance company. And he said, He told me a story that fits with exactly what you're saying, which is, they had a call center, huge calls here, financial services based in the U S and they had these corporate values, that we will, put the customer first, it is the service above the profit, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And they had this call center for a decade. And then, this is pre COVID his task was to. Move this whole call center to a foreign jurisdiction and take advantage of huge cost savings. And to add insult to injury in eliminating these jobs, they were, the people who were terminated had to train their replacements and he said, this was just a hypocrisy writ large and they paid down the road for years because no longer did the people who were still in the organization believe in the authenticity of.

Profit is not coming first. Customer comes first. [00:17:00] Clearly through the actions, it was the opposite. So is that what you're getting at? When you say, you, the authenticity is you can't just say it. You have to act it. Absolutely.

Nathan Yeung: And I think you can see that in a lot of the social led brands where you, that their message stays true to their word and everything that they do and everything, like what's a social

Bart Egnal: led brand that I might know of.

Nathan Yeung: Pentagonia would be a large one right where I think their environmental movement The way that they support the environment the way they support everything around that is in everything that they do So in all the products that they sell and in anything that they sponsor and anything that they purchase everything follows A perspective that they have to respect the environment,

Bart Egnal: right?

I remember their campaign that we don't want you to buy a jacket Stands out to me as or the fact that they'll repair anything that they've made To me are examples of the actions following the words

Nathan Yeung: exactly, so I think [00:18:00] That's where it's really important. And I think that's something that I think a lot of organizations discount, right?

Because I think they think of values and strategic, like some sort of McKinsey exercise, right? Where the, they come out and they have these corporate values and they understand it's best for corporate culture. But at the end of the day, as we all know the business is only good as you execute.

And so you can come up with these corporate values. If you don't follow them, it's going to do you more harm than good. So you, so to be honest, you're not planning to like to follow your corporate values, you're almost better off not doing it and presenting. Cause you'll

Bart Egnal: expose yourself to the hypocrisy.

Exactly. Okay. So let's go to your third, the third piece of how the trust triangles form empathy. Tell me about that one.

Nathan Yeung: I think empathy is so for, so I can put it in different contexts. I think in empathy for marketing, it's the very basis of copywriting. So if anyone has ever read anything about the tactics of how to do copywriting, that is basically empathy.

It is how it is the [00:19:00] framework to express empathy through writing. Okay. Thanks. I think in relationships, empathy is being heard, right? Having the capacity to be heard and to practice the feedback cycle of saying, from what I've heard, This is what I'm hearing from you. Is that correct?

Which is such a, of a very well known relationship tactic where if you're getting into an argument, repeat what you've heard from the speaker in order to qualify that you are hearing the right things, right? Empathy in an organization is the same thing as a relationship. You need to hear your employees and you need to make sure you understand what they are saying, especially on a leadership perspective.

Whether that's a leadership perspective or a customer perspective or a vendor perspective, it could be all sides of the coin. But empathy, again, is just practicing the ability of, I understand where you are coming from and if I don't understand, this is what I see it to be, correct me if my interpretation is wrong.

Bart Egnal: Yeah. I love these three. And I think, as you pointed out, they're marketing. [00:20:00] Lenses through which to think about building trust, but they're also leadership lenses and for people to think about as they communicate, as they reach their audiences. Of these three, like a couple questions, do you need to have all three or is it, you're going to lean into a couple?

Like what is your perspective?

Nathan Yeung: I think if we were to go back to the different use cases, I think they're actually use case dependent and I think they're use case dependent because in different use cases, it's easier to demonstrate particular things. So I think in marketing the scalability of marketing prevents some parts of the empathy to not have so much impact and influence, right?

I can have a million conversations with a million customers. I can certainly try. But I can certainly try to get my customer service team to express that level of empathy and that value to build that trust. So I think you do need to have all three. But I think which leg which pillar or which [00:21:00] point of the triangle you lean on the most is really dependent on the environment of which you're trying to apply this framework to.

So I think in marketing, it's going to be a lot more of the logic side. I think in terms of a leadership role, it's going to be more of the authenticity and the empathy side. Logic, I think will play a role in that, but I think the empathy and the authenticity side will play a much larger role in someone's leadership I think, if we were talking about just relationships I'm going to say empathy plays the number one role.

If you don't have any empathy, it's going to have hard, have a hard time having great conversations.

Bart Egnal: I just don't care about anything you said, Nathan. No, and I think you answered the next question I was going to ask, which is, What is different about building trust for leaders in marketing?

And so if I was to paraphrase what I heard and you tell me if I've got it marketing is really a broad voice of an organization or about a product or initiative. And so it is going to be more on this logic. And it's by definition, won't be connected on an individual human level.

Whereas leadership really is about reaching people. And so that [00:22:00] Leaning into authenticity and leaving into empathy is far more important. Is that a fair contrast?

Nathan Yeung: Yeah, absolutely, because I think there's a level of expectation amongst an interaction. I don't think people are that fooled by the fact that we are trying to sell something as a company.

But I think they can be certainly not fooled into thinking that a person who's my boss, who's someone that I report to on a daily basis, Has the capability and capacity to actually understand me well, right? So the messaging of empathy, marketing can get away with reasonably broad empathy still needs to talk about general pain points But you, but if a leader did that on a one to one standpoint, that's not going to come, that's not going to cut deep enough on the empathy level in order to express something that matters and is impactful because you're just, you can't just generalize a pain point.

This person, it's a one to one interaction. There is a general expectation that the depth of empathy will, should be more in a one to [00:23:00] one leadership role versus a marketing message.

Bart Egnal: And I think you've also hit on why so often when leaders try and just repurpose corporate slogans, it's just platitudinous and empty because that's exactly why.

It's not authentic. It's not empathetic. Yeah. I want to turn to another topic we talked about, taking this knowledge. Okay, Audiences and consumers are lazy. You got to build trust. You got to lean, these three legs of the stool. So let's now turn to the Nathan gives advice to leaders. If you've worked with it, we've worked with a lot of leaders.

What would be the three biggest points you would make drawing on your expertise? For a leader who wants to build trust and connect with their audience.

Nathan Yeung: So marketing is funny because our number one job is to make complex ideas, simple. Okay. And the reason why you do that is because when it's simple, it's memorable.

And when it's simple, it's because it's memorable. It's easy for people to continue to guide themselves with that memorable message. [00:24:00] Like a North star. So if you overcomplicate your message, it's harder for you to get alignment amongst whoever you're leading. Okay. So the first and foremost. I think the number one thing is whatever you stand for, whatever you want for your business or your role or your department, you need to make it simple, right?

Don't overcomplicate it. Don't look at KPIs. Don't do OKRs. Don't do EOS. Don't do any of these things. You need to take down your message into something very simple. So not only can people interpret it themselves, But also remember it with ease. And if you do, neither And I know, and then that's not

Bart Egnal: easy.

I know, I don't know if it's apocryphal, but it might've been Mark Twain who wrote once, excuse the length of this letter. I didn't have time to be brief, right? It's really hard to get to clarity and focus.

Nathan Yeung: It is. And I think. People know that. And I think also when you give them too complicated a message, it also implies that maybe they feel [00:25:00] that you don't even know where you want to go.

If you can't be clear. And they're lazy, right? They don't have the time to process it and figure it out. So I know that sounds that's easier said than done. But that would be definitely my number one thing.

Bart Egnal: Okay.

Nathan Yeung: The second thing is. And this is more of a mindset perspective. And this goes back to having empathy.

If we recognize that everyone is lazy, then we must recognize that no one will interpret our message for us. And if no one's going to interpret the message for us, and that's our mindset, not only will we feel less frustrated. We'll be more open to also explaining things and teaching people what our message is And also actively supporting them in that process Okay Because if you assume that they are not lazy are incredibly capable people and they are listening to your lovely strategy That you did 0.

1 and they're not doing it You're just going to sit there and one inferior yourself and to also likely [00:26:00] undermine their coaching So having the framework My of mine that if we accept that we know inherently including ourselves that we are lazy We must also accept that the people that we are trying to coach are lazy And so therefore it is our job our duty to make it as easy as possible for them

Bart Egnal: I love that and I love it's almost like it's flipping laziness from Ascend to a virtue, right?

It's saying, look, people are just time pressed and their brain is saying, give me the clarity. And so it's really incumbent. Incumbent on you as a speaker, as a leader to do the work for them, having that clarity and then coaching them on it. So I think that I love that framing and don't hate your audience, focus on yourself and your own delivery

Nathan Yeung: And the third thing that I would say and I think this is just a.

A general leadership thing. And I think I'm Bart, I'm sure you'd have stats on this. I, I used to have these stats when I was a [00:27:00] management consultant, but as a part of the trust triangle, as a part of practicing your brand and building trust, we all know that positive feedback, positive support is an asymmetrical thing.

And I think it's 10 to

Bart Egnal: one is the rough ratio. I usually hear

Nathan Yeung: exactly right. So I think practicing that and knowing that is going to be a part of your authentic brand and it's going to be a part of building trust, I think is probably the last point that I think, honestly, I think everyone in life could do more of that, whether that be in personal relationships or in business.

I think making sure that you are aware, which by the way, Bar, which is this is the underlying reason why the consumer psychology piece is funny is because the lazy part is Fundamentally anchored because we're actually fundamentally just overconfident fit So there's this weird feedback loop, but we're so confident that we think we're not lazy.

So therefore we're not [00:28:00] Right. No, that's right off and wrong never in doubt So I think just recognizing that You are likely on that cusp of asymmetrical feedback giving in both positive negative and practicing consistent positive feedback. Whether that is in your personal or business relationships, I think will do anyone an amazing amount of good in building trust in relationships.

Bart Egnal: Yeah there's a recent school of thought, we're in the world of communication and communication training around feedback, which is that, the amazing, and some of the, there's a couple of major consulting firms in the world who have basically stopped giving feedback and that, and what they've concluded is, and I don't know how I feel about it.

Is that people actually do not respond to feedback. They do not change. And by feedback, they mean, what we consider constructive feedback, which is telling someone to do something differently or that they're doing something wrong. And so instead, they're [00:29:00] just giving up on it and they're like, we're just going to move people into doing work that they do well.

And so it's, it is, I think there's all sorts of challenges with that, but I do think one thing that they've caught on is that people are not good at using negatives and they have a dis an outsized impact and not a healthy one. And so I think your point's right. If you want to lead, you're gonna get a lot more effectiveness if you lean into that positive approach.

And not, not in the sense of avoiding tough realities but when it comes to the person, your authenticity should be positive if you really want to inspire someone to act.

Nathan Yeung: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with that.

Bart Egnal: Yeah. Nathan, this is super interesting. What you've done is, deconstructed why people trust or don't.

I'll tell you, I'm a little more apprehensive about my wife's first Uber ride and my future Uber rides. And then, this concept of the trust triangle and thinking about how communication can play into it. So it's been really fascinating having your insights. I wonder for people who want to know more and maybe they want to know more about marketing [00:30:00] and want to tap into your expertise.

Can you share how they can connect with you? Any resources that you offer? Yeah, absolutely. I think you probably piqued a lot of interest.

Nathan Yeung: Yeah, I think that the two areas would be just reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm posting consumer psychology shorts every single day. So if you want to just learn more about, the Dunning Kruger effect, which is something that everyone gets impacted by it's there.

Or you just go onto the website and just book a call with me. I'm always happy to talk about marketing and I find Marketing is just a fundamentally very interesting business. I think it's a mixed bag and I love I love helping and teaching. And that's also why lecture so often.

Bart Egnal: You've certainly taught me some things. I appreciate it. And I want to thank you for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom. Awesome. Thank you so much, Bart.

I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Inspired Podcast and the conversation that I had with our guests. And hopefully you left with some really practical, [00:31:00] tangible tools and tips that you can use to be more consistently inspirational. If you're enjoying the pod, I'll ask you a favor. Please rate and review it.

I love the comments, appreciate the reviews, and the visibility allows others to discover the pod. It's really how word of mouth has spread the Inspire podcast to so many listeners and helped us keep making this great content. Stay tuned. We'll be back in two weeks with another inspiring conversation.

Thanks so much for listening. Go forth and inspire.